Curse

Guardian of the Light · Nov 20, 2005, 08:46 AM // 08:46

It occurs to me that Solo-Farming is a Hot Topic and both sides (for and Against). I would like to start a thread that talks about Solo-Farming ALONE.

Heres the Rules:

1. State what side your on on before you post to aviod confusion if your not on either say Neutral

2. No Flaming others about what they think. You can argue against I don't want this thread turning into:
"I think Solo-Farming is Good"
"STFU your a Noob"
"No I PWN you"
...

3. Stay on topic: Don't go on about Nukers and stuff thats has nothing to do this.

4. Remember were talking about solo-farming this has nothing to do with Team farming.

5. Finally Remember to Follow Forum Rules

Ok I will start:

I am for Solo-farming

Solo-Farming has been around so long its inbeded itself into the game itself. It affects the ecomomy for good because it increases Supply and demand creating a High-Comsumtion Ecomomy.

Farming is avaible to ALL professions and I have seen threads about every Profession so being a certain class doesn't really affect your farming ability that much.

The only Build I would like to see nerfed is the Invinsimonk. Monks can easily switch around their builds if the Invinsimonk would fall.

-Loki- · Nov 20, 2005, 08:53 AM // 08:53

The only place I have a problem with solo farming is the underworld. It's ridiculous that the underworld was ever solo farmable. The rest of the areas, if you can make a build that allows you to solo farm, good for you.

ShadowWrath · Nov 20, 2005, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

The only place I have a problem with solo farming is the underworld. It's ridiculous that the underworld was ever solo farmable. The rest of the areas, if you can make a build that allows you to solo farm, good for you.

I agree.

dont feel no pain · Nov 20, 2005, 10:09 AM // 10:09

well i myself am a farmer and i enjoy altering builds and making my own but they have been cut down to only 4 spots where before i used to farm everywhere (except underworld after i deleted my monk/mes 55 monk *sigh* it was a accident) so then i went on to farm with my w/mo e/mo besides i didn't farm constantly i just farmed when i wasn't doing pvp with the guild and i just gave most of the plats to guildies so i was only helping the guild.
ok what i think ," solo farming in UW is still possible but wrong,trapping the underworld is teamwork so it's good,2 man groups in the UW is still not soloing so good on them, and just solo'ing the underworld is wrong.
Anywhere else and i think keep it up guys even though areanet is nerfing everything there will still be spots to farm and new builds to discover.

Goonter · Nov 20, 2005, 10:09 AM // 10:09

I agree with solo farming, but I dont agree with the current state of the game concerning farming.

I dont like to farm becuase, to me..its unrewarding and boring.
But I dont think anything is wrong with it.

I do think its a problem that 1 level 20 player can solo multibule higher level mobs.
I think is a problem in AI and mob design/placement.
But if a level 20 player were to solo farm a group of level 18 or under...that seems logical.

I think the biggest flaw is in the design of the game economy which in were if you are a casual adventure, farmers spike prices through NPCs out of your reach by bringing masses of gold into the game and purchasing from NPCs.
Then say you want to by pass the NPCs and find the item you want.
What are the chances it will drop for you if you dont farm?

The current way the NPC merchants work, it encourages farming.
The current drop rate of anything of intrest, it encourages farming.

Not only is farming going to happen, it should be expected and probably embraced.
Therefore, game designers should work to create a ecomony that rewards farmers and non farmers alike.
Like an auction house for farmers to dump thier crap into the player base, better quest/mission rewards (like 1plat or more in cash) and more drops of better value to increase their commoness and decrease their value.

Makkert · Nov 20, 2005, 10:15 AM // 10:15

A few remarks on this topic:
- Its a flaw of the game that soloing is more rewarding then playing with groups. I do not believe 'it takes more skill' arguments to justify this. Anyone can solo with a preposted build and a bit of practice.
- Some players see a challenge in finding a way to solo an area, such as UW. There is nothing wrong with players attempting to 'break' the game as a challenge. Its part of their fun they have in the game.
- I see nothing wrong with soloing, unless it wrecks the game in any way. Invinci monk became so popular that a lot of monks didn't feel like grouping anymore, and it wasn't exactly great for the economy long term also.

kvndoom · Nov 20, 2005, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

A few remarks on this topic:
- Its a flaw of the game that soloing is more rewarding then playing with groups. I do not believe 'it takes more skill' arguments to justify this. Anyone can solo with a preposted build and a bit of practice.
- Some players see a challenge in finding a way to solo an area, such as UW. There is nothing wrong with players attempting to 'break' the game as a challenge. Its part of their fun they have in the game.
- I see nothing wrong with soloing, unless it wrecks the game in any way. Invinci monk became so popular that a lot of monks didn't feel like grouping anymore, and it wasn't exactly great for the economy long term also.

Thank you! The invincimonk was a stroke of genius. But hey, from day one, we were told "here are your skills, be creative." But I prefectly understand why it had to be adjusted. I also remember the frustration of not being able to find a healer for my groups when questing.

I think if someone studies the skills and practices and finds a way to beat the odds, it's creative thinking and should be rewarded. And as long as it's not detrimental to the game community, it should not be changed. With the glut of Warrior/Monks in the game right now, I'm more than happy to post any builds I can find to keep those poor guys busy doing something besides hopelessly trying to get a group formed when their supply grossly outweighs their demand.

Guild Wars' economy is driven by vanity. "Perfect" items that really aren't much better than "not quite perfect" items. Armor that costs a fortune but isn't any better whatsoever than the "cheap" stuff. And what's with that anyway? If you have to be a millionaire to get this armor, how exactly does A-net expect you to get the funds? It's either soloing or ebay. The most I usually ever see a monster drop in gold is ~140 coins, and splitting that 8 ways in a mission ain't much. Even soloing, you'd have to get that kind of drop several thousand times to save up enough for that Fissure armor. If somebody wants it bad enough, they will go to whatever means the feel necessary to get it. At least the people who have the patience to solo farm and earn their money for what they want are honorable enough not to just buy it off ebay to save time and grind.

My gripe is that the answers to problems have always seemed to be hasty and impractical knee-jerk reactions. Don't want UW soloing? Establish a minimum party size to enter. Want larger farming groups? Increase the amount / size of drops depending upon the number of persons in the group. So far none of the changes have really done anything to promote playing the game more. They've ticked off people, caused much more PVP vs PVE discontent than is necessary, and created a cat-and-mouse attitude towards the developers. "You nerfed my skill / area, huh? Fine, I'll find another way / place to do it!" Every nerf that happens, people do just that. They don't "adjust" by playing the game 'as it was intended,' they adjust by finding a new farming spot or using different skills to do the exact same thing.

Farmers will be farmers, plain and simple. For some people, it's to get money. For people like me, it's less about wealth and more about how we enjoy playing the game (and yes, there are plenty of people who ENJOY the mindless repetition). You beat all the missions multiple times, you don't care for PVP, just what is left if you want to still play the game?

Keyote · Nov 20, 2005, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

The only place I have a problem with solo farming is the underworld. It's ridiculous that the underworld was ever solo farmable. The rest of the areas, if you can make a build that allows you to solo farm, good for you.

Agreed.

I dont farm much myself, but I'm totally against removing it as an option. The main reason being it gives level 20 players something to do in PvE. If you remove solo farming then all we have to do is the same missions over and over again. Even the high level areas in the game like SF, UW and FoW are mostly about loot, since most people dont care much about xp.

I dont want to solo farm all day, but I do want some choices with what I can do when I'm on. Farming and loot has always been an end game for many people, and I see no reason to take that away from them.

Tactical-Dillusions · Nov 20, 2005, 11:02 AM // 11:02

I think solo farming should be allowed, it should reward the player for doing so but it should also remain challenging and non-repetitive.

Goonter gave a good point in his post when he mentioned monster placement.

In my opinion, things would be so much better if monsters were less in number, but individually much tougher. I wouldn't mind if all monsters hp's were doubled and they used more skills (increase their level), so long as that monsters could be pulled INDIVIDUALLY.
This would increase strategy requirements from both teams and soloers and make playing as a team more rewardable than soloing (a team can kill individual monsters faster than one person).

However, i also think the drops should be made better in such circumstances. If you are going to solo a level 40 hydra for ten minutes, you would want something more than a claw.

Why monsters only drop 1 item is a really poor idea. Why can't they drop a claw and a little gold, or a good weapon and some salvage materials?
If the monsters were much tougher and each one was made into a proper duel, maybe this could happen.

Another idea maybe, make monsters have random skills for it's class.

-Loki- · Nov 20, 2005, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

- Its a flaw of the game that soloing is more rewarding then playing with groups. I do not believe 'it takes more skill' arguments to justify this. Anyone can solo with a preposted build and a bit of practice.

Exactly right. The distribution of drops is so far spread, people solo farm simply because they get more. For a team game, solo farming should be discouraged, but so far, with decent weapons dropping so infrequently, taking a group of 8 people means you simply have very little chance to get a good weapon drop.

Numa Pompilius · Nov 20, 2005, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

1. State what side your on on before you post to aviod confusion if your not on either say Neutral

For. I solo farm myself now and then. Not for the money, I've got plenty, but I find it relaxing.

The real problem isn't that hobbyists farm - noone, and I mean noone, cares about that. A hobbyist can at most farm for 8 hours per day, he'll make lots of dough but wont affect the economy. Seriously, ANet doesn't give a sh!t about hobbyist farmers.

The problem is the Farming Army. They're most conspicuous at Augury Rock - perhaps 200 monks, 1/2 of which are constantly running out the west exit, 1/2 of which are mules and just stand around, occasionally spamming WTS. These are professional farmers. Each human operator operates several mostly automated avatars. Their business is generating gold and, to a lesser degree, items, for sale on ebay.

These are the guys that ANet doesn't like. They screw the economy, they lag the servers (Augury Rock intl district is the only place in intl you'll get lag), and _they're not actually players_. They cost ANet money, because ANet needs to supply more servers to avoid lag (Augury Rock intl district is also the only place in intl which has more than one district).

ANet would love to find a way to stop these guys.

That said, the recent AI update wasn't a solo-farming nerf. It was an AI update.
If you search the fora here, you'll find that lots of people have repeatedly asked for an update to the AI so that the monsters wouldn't simply stand around in AoE spells. ANet complied, like they have with so many other requests we players have made.

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Nov 20, 2005, 11:40 AM // 11:40

I only farm areas I know I can take on my own, with my regular build.

If you cant farm with the build that you use on a normal basis inside a group, then I see that as being wrong. At your best, with your best and favorite build and you cant get the job done? You havent earned the ability to farm by yourself.

So, pretty much, my position is an opinionated neutral.

Pandora's box · Nov 20, 2005, 11:55 AM // 11:55

I am for solo farming because it comes most closely to the kind of game I like to play most: action rpg.

For me the farming aspect is not very important though. I would prefer the abillity of going solo on more regions without good droppings rather than soloing the same place again and again to find goodies. In fact, a large country with a wider variation of monsters, less groups, but some suprising single encounters would make my game much more fun if it was possible to solo there, even without decent droppings.

I doubt the current solo farming has much effect on the games economy. Simply because after so many months all good items are available allready for reasonable prices. I now sell allmost everything to the vendor and when I feel I need something I simply buy it from another player with the gold I earned. I never have the feeling to pay more than something is worth.

aron searle · Nov 20, 2005, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

The problem is the Farming Army. They're most conspicuous at Augury Rock - perhaps 200 monks, 1/2 of which are constantly running out the west exit, 1/2 of which are mules and just stand around, occasionally spamming WTS.

Just slightly off topic, i think augery has been the quitest this weekend than i have ever seen it, i didnt see more than 2 districts there this weekend (when i was there anyway)

Back on topic

I am for Solo farming.

I solo farm when none of my guildees are online, i dont play pugs much if i can avoid it.

If no guildees are on i solo farm, if i couldnt do that id just play something else instead rather than play pugs, im fed up of the "your a noob / give me that drop / what weapon you got / will you sell it / i want to do bonus (after we said were not doing it before we left / leavers / rushers ect ect ect. Yes there are good pugs, but 1 in every 3 has a bad applle that makes me go

Right im off to solo farm, i also enjoy it.

Quote:

- Its a flaw of the game that soloing is more rewarding then playing with groups. I do not believe 'it takes more skill' arguments to justify this. Anyone can solo with a preposted build and a bit of practice.

This is why i dont go to UW /FOW.

The drops in teams absoloutly suck (and i want something more than just knowing i can kill stuff there), but i dont like solo-ing the area as i find it too boring (my monk/necro can solo it but its so dulllllllllll).

In an ideal game world you would have places where you can team farm and other places where you can solo farm and be happy with the drops from both.

To me the game allows for up to several different playing styles and farming is one of them.

Daijdjan · Nov 20, 2005, 12:19 PM // 12:19

I am for Solo Farming.

Some goals of the game cant be reached trough normal gaming. One prestige armor ist possible to fund with normal gaming, but for all 4 chars? Not in a time frame that i like. FoW armor? One way ist doing endless trips to FoW and UW to get all your Ectos and Shards, another way is buying them with money you farmed.

I farmed till i got a prestige for all my chars. That was boring and repetitive but it brought in the gold.

Mahanaxar · Nov 20, 2005, 01:47 PM // 13:47

I am for solo farming.

-Drops ratio in this game is obviously broken, and solo farming is way more rewarding than teamplay

-Experimenting new area/builds is the only thing left to do for ultimate PvE players until chapter 2

-Solo farming doesnt ruin the economy. In fact, solo farmers guarantee a constant huge flow of near-perfect weapons, that usually are sold very cheap (or perfect weapons with ugly skins). Solo farmers buy expensive things like ectos, black dyes, runes from merchants and prevent the prices to skyrocket (example: ectos price before update=13k, after=17k).

-They do not ruin the game balance in any way. The only objective for farmers is to buy expensive nice looking things, but things like fow armor or stormbows dont affect the game balance.

-Is relaxing to kick a bunch of stupid high level monsters.

I think that every single area in the game (except uw maybe) should be solo-farmable with the right build.
If anyone find a build to farm Hell's Precipe alone, congrats to him.

And I don't really care about in game money sold for real money.

Sekkira · Nov 20, 2005, 02:03 PM // 14:03

I was actually quite enjoying farming the UW before the update. It was rather exciting trying to stay alive. Alas, it is rather boring now. Oh well.

I'm definately for solo farming, as stated before, drops should be changed to promote team play, not skills or areas changed to make farming harder and force team play.

Gwenhywar · Nov 20, 2005, 02:39 PM // 14:39

I don't see anything wrong with solo, dual, whatever form of farming. As to the bots farming, there should be other ways to deal with them - nerfing drops hurts the real players much MORE than it can hurt the botters/ebayers (they'll farm their gold anyway, they've got plenty of time on their hands).

I used to farm quite a bit myself, mainly because I enjoyed the adrenaline and thrill of seeing a gold item drop, and waiting to ID it and see if it's anything nice ... it's like playing lottery. Then the drops got nerfed so badly it became unfun to farm - one can make some income with a gazillion griffon wings, white weapons and a mountain of glittering dust, but there's no fun in it.

If grouping with other people was rewarded with better drops, hell, YES, I'd have preferred to run around together with some friends killing stuff instead of doing it alone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

If you cant farm with the build that you use on a normal basis inside a group, then I see that as being wrong.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that people should (or should be able to) play through the whole game, regardless of the area, regardless of the type of monsters in it, regardless of conditions/hexes/skills those monsters are using on you, regardless of what OTHER classes you have in your team, with the exact same build?

That sounds like a completely wrong approach to me. Somehow I always thought all these things mattered, and adjusted not only my build, but even my secondary class and armor/weapon type accordingly (talking about normal PvE stuff in a group, not solo-farming).

What's wrong with adapting to be maximally effective in a given situation/area?

Goonter · Nov 20, 2005, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahanaxar

In fact, solo farmers guarantee a constant huge flow of near-perfect weapons, that usually are sold very cheap (or perfect weapons with ugly skins). Solo farmers buy expensive things like ectos, black dyes, runes from merchants and prevent the prices to skyrocket (example: ectos price before update=13k, after=17k).

-They do not ruin the game balance in any way. The only objective for farmers is to buy expensive nice looking things, but things like fow armor or stormbows dont affect the game balance.

If this game works like I think it does it goes like this:

-x number of y items in an area.
-Farmer consumes large numbers of y items in area for himself.
-Area that has been farmed now has increasing less to offer.

So when a person farms, they nerf the area for others.

-x number of y items to NPC merchants.
-Farmer buys large numbers of y items for himself at merchants.
-NPC raises prices of y item to balance the demand.

So when a person thats farmed money for 60 ecto and purchases it from the NPC, he raises its value for the next guy.

In the end, farmers only garuntee that once they got what they want, the next guy has to farm harder to get it too.
Its a ruthless cycle.

The system might have worked if where not for the "farming army" as Numa Pompilius puts it.
Im somewhat sure the hugh popularity in the invinsable monk helped tip some scales too.

But I wouldnt say the ecomony of the game is ruined.
I just feel that the current mechanics are a bit unfair under the assumption that casual or newer players are supposed to have equal chance and oppertunity to be rewarded in the likeness of farmers for there efforts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

I'm definately for solo farming, as stated before, drops should be changed to promote team play, not skills or areas changed to make farming harder and force team play.

I dont think increasing drops will promote team play. Increasing drops for teams would, but that would make the game into a serious farm festival. (If thats what the intention of the PvE experance should be, then so be it. But I dont think that was the design in mind)

Yes increase drops. But assume people are going to farm it. Then force the farmers to sell to the players for profit buy removing the NPCs and adding an auction.
If you increase the quest/mission rewards, casual adventures will have the money to purchase the now commonly aquired items from farmers, that are competing against each other.
And farmers arent going to get thier profits anywhere else.

Dax · Nov 20, 2005, 03:22 PM // 15:22

I am for solo farming-

As is alot of things in the game, farming is optional. If you don't enjoy farming, it is not essential your success. In most games I usually farm (I sorta think it's fun), but GW I get enough stuff just playing.

Some folks enjoy it, and if it keeps people in the game...go for it.